“And if you have fun with it, that's going to come across and, I think that's the missing piece. That's where I would start. If I was going to really trust an agency or musicians to create something for me, it was, like, how do we have a conversation or multiple conversations to get us to the most fun way of executing this? Because if you're having fun, you're going to come up with something unique. If you're not having fun, you're just going to try and get it out the way as quick as possible, right? If it's just transactional, I don't think anybody really gets to that point of exploring an idea beyond what's written on the paper. Although it's hard to predict what makes a successful Sonic brand, I think it's more about the process that gets you to that place.” – George Holliday

This episode is the second half of my conversation with producers, composers, and founders of creative music agency Hear Me Out, George Holliday and Luke Moseley as they share their thoughts on what defines a sonic brand, how AI is reshaping the music and advertising industries, and their message to the next generation of musicians as they grow up in the age of generated content.

As always, if you have questions for my guests, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - Creating a Sonic Branding Strategy

The second half of our conversation picks up as Luke shares his thoughts on what makes or breaks an audio brand. “I think, for me, a successful sonic branding strategy is something that has the lowest friction to actually getting to market,” he says, “to showing people the effectiveness of it, and then it can just be developing from there.” “I also think we kind of rely on statistics far too much in the creative phase of doing all of this,” George adds, recalling his marketing experience prior to founding Hear Me Out. “I think when we really understand the brand and you get to have fun with what it is they're about, that's what's going to make the most successful sonic logo for them.”

(0:07:31) - Exploring AI's Impact on Music

“That's not really what brands are employing us for and having us as partners,” Luke notes as he and George discuss their Hear Me Out clients. “It's for the understanding, it's for the ability to translate their larger goals and their marketing strategy and how music can help elevate that and support it.” Our talk turns to AI and how much it’s impacted the audio industry over the past year or so, and whether machine-generated music might someday replace human artists. “I was thinking about when CGI came into the film industry,” George observes, “and everyone was like, ‘Oh, nobody's gonna go out and make films anymore. We're just gonna hire a studio and make everything in one room.’”

(0:12:43) - The Impact of CGI and AI

George notes that CGI hasn’t replaced cinematography as much as people expected, partially because movie franchises like Mission: Impossible take pride in their authenticity. “It wasn't CGI,” he says, “because Tom Cruise...

“You know it's the way that news passed between villages before there were any written word, you know, for anything to get around. I think we all know that it's incredibly integral to, initially, to survival, let alone to emotion. You know, if you could wrap important news in memorable melodies, then people were going to be less likely to die back in the day. So, I think there's a part of that within all of us. So yeah, I think you can speak very little of the same language but still be connected instantaneously through music. I guess that’s what my travels have taught me.” – Luke Moseley

This episode’s guests are a pair of composers and producers who launched creative music agency Hear Me Out because of their frustration with how the traditional agency model removed the musicians from the decision makers. Hear Me Out is now unlocking value for brands with a tool that’s been used for decades but is hugely underutilised today – and that tool is sound.

Their names are George Holliday and Luke Moseley, and we’ll be diving into how sound shapes emotion, memory, and connection from music to business. We’ll also hear from them how taking risks, following curiosity, and listening deeply have guided their creative journey. Get ready for a fascinating conversation about the power of sound!

As always, if you have questions for my guests, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:01) - Musicians' Early Sound Influences and Journeys

Our conversation begins with George and Luke’s early memories of sound, and the influences that led them to a career in audio branding. “There was always a piano in the house in all of my family,” George recounts, “with all my family, and we always used to gather around and just sing badly, whether it be at Christmastime or just the weekend.” They share their musical journey, literally in Geroge’s case as he toured Europe by bus, and Luke likewise recalls his early days as an indie musician on the road. “Mine was just going to places to play shows,” Luke explains. “I always just traveled with my longboard skateboard duct-taped to the outside of my guitar case.”

(0:08:57) - The Power of Music in Communication

Luke and George share what their early experiences taught them about music’s power to transcend borders and even language. “You can speak very little of the same language,” Luke says, “but still be connected pretty instantaneously through music. I guess this is what my travels have taught me.” George adds his thoughts about the different cultural directions music has evolved in, and what they have in common. “I think that's why we always, as a species,” he notes, “come back to percussive elements, more so than we come back to melodic elements. I think there's some kind of group feeling about that as well. There's a togetherness with percussion that really makes it work.”

(0:14:20) - Creating Music for Brands With Purpose

As the first half of our discussion concludes, George and Luke explain what inspired them as musicians to found their sonic branding agency...

“I have a friend who’s a library film composer and produces podcasts, and I was talking to him, I was giving him the kind of same thesis I talked about today. And he’s like, ‘yeah, I get it. But like, I’m the one who’s going to lose the job.’ Cause what he, this very specific, specified job he has [is] of composing kind of anonymous music for podcasts. And he’s successful, he wrote the theme of Serial, and he’s done a lot of big podcasts in New York Times and NPR and, uh, and he’s like, that’s probably the functional music which employed a lot of composers is probably not going to be needed as much.” – Drew Thurlow

This episode is the second half of my conversation with founder of Opening Ceremony Media and author of Machine Music: How AI is Transforming Music’s Next Act Drew Thurlow as we discuss the surprising musical trend Drew foresees as AI becomes more commonplace, the one lesson he always shares with music students when it comes to the future of AI, and the ripple effects that generated audio content and voice clones have already started to have across the music industry.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - Future of AI in Creative Aesthetics

We pick up the conversation as Drew offers his prediction of how AI music, over time, might become as retro and nostalgic as lofi music today. “I have this theory that with all these AI hallucinations that are happening,” he explains, “that’s going to become its own creative aesthetic, and you’re going to start to see the AI vocal models, you know, the early AI vocal models [return].” He shares his observations as a guest lecturer and why he’s optimistic about the next generation’s relationship with AI, and the lesson he always shares with students. “I’d encourage students to have curiosity be your superpower,” he says. “And community is also really, really important. It was really important for me when I was starting out twenty, twenty-five years ago. It’s even more important now, with so much more noise out there and so many more distractions and so much more music and people doing it.”

(0:04:43) - Trends in Music Tech Startups

Drew talks about how the industry is evolving as digital media becomes the norm, and the opportunities for AI to increase revenue. “Streaming growth is slowing down,” he tells us. “You know, we’re running out of subscribers in the West and North America, western Europe and North America, and so labels and rights holders and artists are kind of in the mood to count their pennies.” He notes some of the less obvious ways that AI is increasing revenue, such as black box royalty collections and anti-piracy safeguards, and the versatile uses of generated audio content. “Adaptive audio companies [are] using machine learning and generative AI for health,” he says, “also in the gaming environments, which is a big business, where personalized music can adapt to you and your environment. It kind of reads your environment. So those are...

“And we got a new Beatles song. I can’t believe we’re talking about the Beatles…. But John Lennon recorded a really corrupted vocal before he tragically died, and it was just kind of there because of some stem separation tech that is only possible because of machine learning. They were able to clean up the vocals, fully on board with the John Lennon estate and the remaining Beatles members, and there’s a few others, but this is interesting. It’s just, it’s a new way of engaging with audio that people, fans are showing that they really like.” – Drew Thurlow

This episode’s guest is a former professional musician turned music executive and strategist. He served as Senior Vice President of A&R at Sony Music and has held leadership roles at both Pandora and Warner Music. As a graduate of Brown University with a master’s in Technology and Leadership, he blends creative insight with business acumen. His writing has appeared in Billboard, and he remains a sought-after voice on the intersection of music, tech, and innovation. His first book, “Machine Music: How AI is Transforming Music’s Next Act,” will be published in 2026.

His name is Drew Thurlow, and he’s also a fellow jury member for the International Sound Awards, which is how we met. As someone on the forefront of music and technology, he has a lot of great advice for sound creatives wanting to make their mark – both now and into the future.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - Evolution of Music Industry and Taste

Our conversation starts off with Drew’s early memories of sound and his start as a musician. “I was one of those kids,” he recalls, “who just didn’t have idle time without a guitar in my hands, and I didn’t think too much about it. I wasn’t super self-reflective about it, I just kind of like followed my instincts and continued to do that.” He tells us more about his career journey as a music executive and explains how much the business has changed since he first started out. “There’s the whole influencer thing wrapped up in it,” he says, “and the way people, especially Gen Z and younger millennials, fall in love with personalities and artists is different. It’s not necessarily bad, it’s just different.”

(0:12:36) - AI Impact on Music Industry

As the first half of our discussion wraps up, we turn to the question of whether AI might replace human artists, and Drew offers some surprising statistics. “From our best, really good estimates by places like Deezer and Spotify,” he says, “AI-generated music, even though it’s a measurable percentage of all the songs on [digital service providers], is a third of a percent of the royalty pool, and I just want to reiterate that it is a rounding error. Nobody wants this music.” He shares his thoughts on where AI is heading and some of the ways it might help transform the music industry. “On the business side,” he tells us, “there’s a lot of evidence that these fans want to engage with music in cool and interesting ways, and these AI tech tools allow them

“If you’re watching any video on how to get started on content for your business, for public speaking, anything like that, the microphone is always the number one thing, they say. And that should be a cue. It’s not the phone and it’s not a video camera. They say use your phone to get started, but buy a better mic and there’s a reason that this matters so much to people.” – Nikolaj Kloch

This episode is the second half of my conversation with founder of Thrivr Productions Nikolaj Kloch as we discuss what he’s learned firsthand about sound since becoming a videographer, how AI is reshaping the way we use studio sound effects, and his number one on-site audio rule.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Audio Branding

The second half of our conversation picks up as Nikolaj tells us about some of the lessons he’s had to learn by experience while working with sound, such as the hidden biases that have shaped recording equipment for decades. “Audio hardware and software have been set up for a man’s voice, and I didn’t realize this over the years,” he notes. “I had no idea about that, and there’s a lot of intricacies like that which are just out in the industry that have been left over for a hundred years now, and you don’t think how that ties back to history until you dive into it.” He tells us how he incorporates AI into his workflow and where he sees it taking the future of audio/video editing. “I think that’s going to make incredible videography work,” he explains. “I think it’s going to add another layer that you still need people behind it, I think we always will, but… it’s going to be a great tool for us to have.”

(0:14:05) - The Impact of Quality Audio

As our conversation comes to a close, Nikolaj shares his strategy for demonstrating the value of sound to skeptical clients. “Just showing them the difference between well-planned audio and something that is just basic, sounds bad, filmed with an iPhone that they’re holding to their mouth and things like that,” he says. “If you show them the side-by-side, I think that’s the easiest way to show them that the transformation is there.” He talks about his latest projects and how listeners can get in touch, and tells us what opened his eyes to the power of sound. “If you could sit down and watch a single video that shows the before and after,” he says, “it changed my view on audio entirely, and it’s something that I always have... when I show these budgets to public speakers, conferences or businesses.”

Episode Summary

• The importance of choosing – and properly setting up – the right audio equipment,
• How sound empowers everything from shaping a narrative to capturing brand synergy.

Connect with the Audio Branding Podcast:

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“If you don’t make the video with audio in mind first, that’s the difference between, you know, a 14% click-through rate versus, you know, a 2% click-through rate. And a lot of people don’t tie those two together, that it matters. It’s something that people should be focusing on with a lot of time and energy.” – Nikolaj Kloch

This week’s guest is a videographer, content creator, and former aerospace engineer who helps speakers, entrepreneurs, and brands elevate their presence using impactful video that actually delivers. With a background in both engineering and creative production, he brings a rare mix of precision and artistry to his work, and he’s worked with speakers from TEDx stages to Fortune 500 boardrooms, helping them stand out, connect with audiences, and grow their influence.

His name is Nikolaj Kloch, and he’s passionate about the power of sound and its impact on visuals. Stay tuned as he shares his insights on why audio isn’t just important – it’s essential.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Audio in Marketing

As we start off our discussion, Nikolaj recalls one of his first memories of sound, a Lego commercial his brother starred in when they were children. “They actually had to bring in a mic and he just hit the blocks over and over to get the sound crumbling,” he recalls. “And you know, you don’t put those together as a kid until you get older, but I can always hear those blocks crumbling.” He shares how his background as an aerospace engineer took a surprising turn towards audio production, and the common threads between the two. “A lot of people think they don’t translate as much,” he explains, “but it’s one of those things where, you know, audio is a great example of the nitty gritty. There are specific engineers that dive into this every single day, and spend nothing else for their time.”

(0:09:12) - Mastering Precision Audio Recording

We talk about precision audio, just what that phrase really means, and the extensive background that getting the most out of audio can require. “It’s kind of like Picasso saying he won’t sell his little picture on his napkin because he’s taken so much time learning this,” Nikolaj says. “And I feel like that directly ties into this, because it’s really precision. You know they have to line up perfectly.” As the first half of our talk wraps up, Nikolaj shares how he aims to create the ideal environment for an on-site recording and how he helps clients work around some less-than-ideal ones. “I’m going to be reusing this over and over,” he says. “So I’m always like, please, let me at least talk to them and see what their setup is, let’s dive into it a bit. They usually get a little annoyed, but it makes a big difference.”

Episode Summary

• How videographer Nikolaj Kloch transitioned from aerospace engineering to sound design.
• Nikolaj’s work with precision audio, from live recordings to film...

“[What] a lot of sonic branding agencies aren’t aware of is that sonic branding can also be used as a tool to address a concern that the client might have. So, for example, a new competitor has come in and now they feel dated. Okay, let’s write a sonic branding that’s based around being modern. Okay, they’ve had a big knock on trust, like I mentioned before, with a data breach. This is a great opportunity to write a sonic branding that builds customer trust. So, it can be used as another mode along with your visuals, along with your tone of voice. Your branding tone of voice is in, like, the words that are spoken, not the like the language, right? It’s a tool to convey your brand.” – Dr. Thomas Dickson

This episode is the second half of my conversation with musicologist and sonic branding strategist Dr. Thomas Dickson as he shares his thoughts on maintaining a long-term branding, the growing use of AI for everything from monitoring to mock-ups, and the versatility of an effective sonic logo.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:01) - Impact of Sonic Branding Variations

My conversation with Dr. Dickson picks up as we talk about the challenge of maintaining a consistent audio brand through changing management and brand strategies. “They might not even have been strategically sonic branding,” he notes. “It could have just been some brand music that they turned into a mnemonic or brand music they’ve just been using for years, and then a brand manager will come in and just throw out everything.” He points out McDonald’s as a prime example of an audio brand that’s only gotten stronger over the past twenty-five years, and how consistency has been its key to success. “It’s a really good case study for sonic branding agencies to look at,” he says, “how you can take a mnemonic [and] use it in, there’s videos on YouTube where it’s, like, using like thirty different contexts, and it’s just changed instrumentation slightly, changed the speed, [and] added swing .”

(0:07:38) - Sonic Branding Evolution and Impact

Dr. Dickson tells us about his worth with agencies that are increasingly turning to AI for solutions, especially when it comes to catching online plagiarism. “They are using AI to identify melodies that are shared and then taking them to court once the melody’s been used sufficiently,” he cautions. “Day one, a song comes out, they don’t take them to court. They wait till the song is a massive hit and it’s got enough revenue, and then they take them to court.” We discuss AI’s growing presence in everything from audio mastering and editing to generating new music, and he points out some of the roles he sees it filling over time. “I’m imagining in the future there will be the option to take a track,” he explains, “and then just [have AI] re-tailor it to that context and stretch it out so that, for the conference that goes for two hours, there’s appropriate backing music based on your sonic branding.”

(0:16:24) - Future of...

“If you imagine a company has a ten million dollar marketing budget, right? And then you imagine they have a sonic logo on every single TikTok ad, Facebook ad, YouTube ad, all these new media where the majority of the traffic’s coming from now. If they can increase conversion rates marginally, they can have a huge difference to their bottom line. And it’s one of those things where, because sonic branding, once it’s done, once, and, well, yes, there might be a brand refresh where it’s changed in ten years, um, or it’s updated, or maybe it’s changed slightly to work with a different culture, right? There might be like a version which sounds slightly more Canadian, right? Or more Christmasy, or things like that. But the point being is this is an asset that they develop once, and then it can be used on these campaigns that can have huge advertising budgets, which makes it very cheap when you compare it to the actual campaign marketing spend.” – Dr. Thomas Dickson

My guest on this episode is a musicologist who specializes in how we perceive sound and how it shapes brand communication. With a PhD in Music Psychology, he helps brands create emotionally resonant and research-backed sonic identities. His work reduces subjectivity, improves creative decisions, and even addresses legal risks like plagiarism in audio branding.

His name is Dr. Thomas Dickson, and he’s advised national retailers, tech firms, and service brands throughout his career. And, as if the subject of musicology isn’t fascinating enough, we’ll also be discussing how businesses can make sure their sound stays original and protected.

As always, if you have questions for my guest, you’re welcome to reach out through the links in the show notes. If you have questions for me, visit audiobrandingpodcast.com, where you’ll find a lot of ways to get in touch. Plus, subscribing to the newsletter will let you know when the new podcasts are available, along with other interesting bits of audio-related news. And if you’re getting some value from listening, the best ways to show your support are to share this podcast with a friend and leave an honest review. Both those things really help, and I’d love to feature your review on future podcasts. You can leave one either in written or in voice format from the podcast’s main page. I would so appreciate that.

(0:00:00) - The Power of Sound in Advertising

Our discussion begins with a look back at Dr. Dickson’s early memories of sound, and he came prepared with a more recent, but still memorable, experience that demonstrated the power of sound. “By the grand finale,” he recalls as he describes an outdoor concert featuring the Melbourne Symphonic Orchestra, “it’s a bucketing down, raining and everyone’s still there. So we’ve got this huge event, it’s bucketing down, raining, [and] no one’s leaving because they want to hear the finale.” He tells us more about musicology, what it means, and how it can help build a stronger brand. “Musicology is like the academic and rigorous study of music,” he explains. “It comes down to a broad range of different styles, so this could be like music history, it could be music psychology, which is what I looked at, the psychology of music or sound, [or] it could be ethnomusicology.”

(0:09:05) - Musicology and Plagiarism in Sonic Branding

Dr. Dickson tells us about the different dimensions of musicology and how sound influences us, such as musical expectancy and episodic memory, and how much our impression of sound comes from the media we consume. “We have cultural norms associated with electronic music,” he explains, “digital sounds, hard hitting bass, all that kind of stuff that we