What exactly is “War Putinism” — and how long can it survive?

Jason is joined by Russia expert Mark Galeotti, host of In Moscow’s Shadows, to get inside the increasingly militarised, kleptocratic system Putin has built. They discuss Russia’s recent Duma elections, whether the war economy is devouring Russia’s future, how corruption changes when elites stop believing the system will last forever, and why Russia is so effective at exploiting divisions in Western societies.

Then they Order the Disorder: Jason and Mark disagree agreeably over whether Europe needs greater unity or much bolder action against Russia — before exploring financial enforcement, sanctions, Russian money flows and what the West could actually do to constrain Putin’s capacity to disorder the international system.

And, naturally, there are bears. Lots of rampaging Russian bears.

MEGA ORDERERS BONUS: Can Ukraine actually win? Responding to a listener challenge, Jason and Mark debate what Russian defeat could realistically mean, whether any settlement merely gives Putin time to regroup, and what security guarantees Ukraine would actually need. Plus: even more on Russia’s increasingly disorderly bears.

Join the Mega Orderers Club for the full bonus:

https://disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to Ordering the Disorder:

https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

SHOWNOTES LINKS

Mark Galeotti’s In Moscow’s Shadows:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/in-moscows-shadows/id1510124746

In Moscow’s Shadows 264: Russia’s Bear(s) On The March:

https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/in-moscows-shadows-264-russias-bear-s-on-the-march/id1510124746?i=1000791844169

Our recent episode with Hanna Notte — Can Putin Outlast the West (by Disordering it)?:

https://podfollow.com/disorder/episode/35b8c221b3fca72fafb5a4b0fee7924f22d97423/view

Disorder Ep. 196 with Jamison Firestone — Rule of Lies: The Origin Story of Putin’s Russia:

https://podcasts.apple.com/id/podcast/ep-196-rule-of-lies-the-origin-story-of/id1706818264?i=1000777642161

Our previous episode with Sir Bill Browder:

https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8eeece

Join the Mega Orderers Club:

https://disordershow.com/club

This is a story about an Israeli and a Palestinian who refuse to give up. Instead, they teach us that “Peace is an action”. Rejecting revenge and rage, Aziz offers an image that stays with us: anger is like nuclear power. It can destroy, or it can light a path. This is a conversation about what it takes to choose the latter, and what the rest of us might do next.

Maoz Inon's parents were killed in the Hamas attacks of 7 October 2023. Aziz Abu Sarah's brother was killed by injuries from torture he suffered in Israeli custody. They have every reason to know what this conflict costs. Together, they insist that its future can still be peace.

In this episode of Out of Order, Mark Lobel, a British Jew and journalist, speaks with the Israeli and Palestinian co-authors of The Future Is Peace, alongside his childhood friend Rida Saïd, a British Muslim, entrepreneur and advisor in the Middle East, dedicated to peace and dialogue in the region.

Their conversation moves from grief and anger to the hard work of building a movement: protecting Palestinian farmers during the olive harvest, teaching young women in the West Bank, creating a place where Israelis and Palestinians can encounter each other’s stories, and pressing people with power to act.

The peace activists also share their thoughts on: Ed Sheeran, Macklemore, Ed Miliband, the UK government’s sanctions against West Bank settlements, the upcoming Israeli and Palestinian elections and Aziz’s assertion that just three and a half percent of a society can change the social and political structure of a country.

Mark and Rida ask the questions that test that vision. Why spend so much time appealing to audiences abroad? What should happen when language meant to demand freedom makes someone else afraid? And, if the politicians will not lead, who will?

Guests: Maoz Inon, Aziz Abu Sarah, Rida Saïd

Producer: George McDonagh

Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early release episodes and more:

https://disordershow.com/club

Show Note Links:

Contact Maoz and Aziz’s non-profit organisation here: https://www.iinteract.org/

Buy Maoz and Aziz’s book here: The Future Is Peace, a New York Times bestseller https://www.amazon.co.uk/Future-Peace-Aziz-Abu-Sarah/dp/1837264074/ref=asc_df_1837264074?mcid=cac2792703583071a5d48985f377d155&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=781185311404&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=700057887293780533&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045954&hvtargid=pla-2449018475226&psc=1&hvocijid=700057887293780533-1837264074-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1

Read ‘A Law Catching Up with a Truth We Have Always Known’ by Rida Said: https://www.arabnews.com/opinion/a-law-finally-catching-up-with-a-truth-we-have-always-known-3001235

Watch Maoz and Aziz’s TED Talk, April 2024: https://www.ted.com/talks/aziz_abu_sarah_and_maoz_inon_a_palestinian_and_an_israeli_face_to_face

Subscribe to Out of Order on Substack here: https://substack.com/@marklobeltv

Follow Out of Order on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/outofordermarklobel/?hl=en-gb

Follow Out of Order on Youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/@OutofOrderwithMarkLobel

Get in touch with Mark here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/

Maoz and Aziz addressing the United Nations, 28th September 2026: https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1i/k1idc71j2y

Four and a half years after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Putin hasn’t won. But Russia hasn’t been isolated either.

In this episode of Disorder latest, Jason is joined by Russia expert Hanna Notte, author of We Shall Outlast Them: Putin’s Global Campaign to Defeat the West, to explore how the Ukraine war has become the organising principle of Russian foreign policy — and a much wider struggle over global order.

How has Moscow cultivated relationships with China, India, Iran and the Global South? Does Russia actively benefit from global Disorder? And does Putin really need to keep fighting to preserve his regime — or does he continue simply because he believes Russia can still outlast Ukraine and its Western supporters?

Hanna also draws on her years living in and travelling through Russia to unpack stoikost — endurance and resilience — and the Russian narratives of suffering, self-reliance and victimhood.

As they Order the Disorder, they look at what would actually prove Putin’s wager wrong? Hanna argues that Europe needs above all to remain steady: keep Ukraine economically and militarily viable, strengthen its air defences, squeeze Russia’s oil revenues and shadow fleet, and demonstrate that Moscow cannot simply wait for Western resolve to collapse.

For Mega Orderers, hear Jason and Hanna get much more granular about where the war stands right now.

Join the Mega Orderers Club for the full bonus:

https://disordershow.com/club

SHOW NOTES

Buy Hanna Notte’s We Shall Outlast Them: Putin’s Global Campaign to Defeat the West in the UK:

https://www.hatchards.co.uk/book/we-shall-outlast-them/hanna-notte/9781324117018

Hanna Notte discusses We Shall Outlast Them on the Kennan Institute’s The Long View — Putin’s Campaign to Defeat the West:

https://www.kennaninstitute.org/past-events

Mark Galeotti’s In Moscow’s Shadows:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-moscows-shadows/id1510124746

Mark Galeotti on Hidden Forces — The West’s Forgotten War and the New Russia:

https://hiddenforces.io/podcasts/the-wests-forgotten-war-and-the-new-russia-mark-galeotti/

Disorder Ep. 196 with Jamison Firestone — Rule of Lies: The Origin Story of Putin’s Russia:

https://podcasts.apple.com/id/podcast/ep-196-rule-of-lies-the-origin-story-of/id1706818264?i=1000777642161

Disorder with Marcel Dirsus — Dictators’ Disordering Quest for Internal Security:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep67-dictators-disordering-quest-for-internal-security/id1706818264?i=1000669774299

Disorder:

https://disordershow.com/

Mega Orderers Club:

https://disordershow.com/club