Twenty-five years after 9/11, did America respond to an attack on the Western Order by inadvertently helping to disorder that Order itself?

Jason is joined by Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Ben Hodges, former Commanding General of U.S. Army Europe, to look back at 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and the collapse of NATO allies trust in the USA—and forward to how Ukraine can win and the defence of Europe. Hodges argues that military power is only useful when attached to a clear strategic objective and Congressional and popular buy-in: a lesson America repeatedly forgot after 9/11.

They then turn to Ukraine: drones, long-range strikes, manpower, democratic legitimacy and Europe's continuing failure to develop sufficient air and missile defence. In the Ordering the Disorder section, General Hodges argues that Europe should stop thinking about merely improving Ukraine's negotiating position and instead help it defeat Russia—while rebuilding the alliances and institutions that once magnified American power.

Join the Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club to get Jason's response to the interview, including his own reflections on 9/11 and whether power without clear objectives, functioning alliances and an idea of the Order it is seeking to create can itself become an engine of Disorder.

SHOWNOTES LINKS

Democrats v Dictators with Ben Hodges on his personal background:

https://youtu.be/9eOKx6iVTx8?is=PJsO4AA9lfIk_5ru

Ben Hodges — Association of the United States Army:

https://www.ausa.org/people/ben-hodges

NATO — Collective Defence and Article 5:

https://www.nato.int/en/what-we-do/introduction-to-nato/collective-defence-and-article-5

Disorder — NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? with Jamie Shea, Kori Schake, Timothy Garton Ash and Charles Kupchan:

https://podfollow.com/disorder/episode/484e21562b7dcd1a1a1f570a09343fd68bf6e732/view

Join the Mega Orderers Club:

https://disordershow.com/club

A great power battle is emerging between Russia, China and Washington… and Europe teeters on the edge of all three. Could this break up the union? And is the European reliance on America over?

To find out, Jason is joined by author and Director of the Moynihan Center of European Studies at Syracuse University, Glyn Morgan. His latest book The Rise and Fall of American Europe charts the rise and fall of the 80-year history of what he calls American Europe.

Jason and Glyn discuss how this system emerged off the back of Roosevelt's plans to dismantle both fascism and British imperial power, why it delivered decades of European prosperity, and why that’s now under threat.

Plus: European complacency on defence, Macron's failed warnings, and - as they Order the Disorder - Glyn imagines a future where Europe works together for defense, with Britain’s role as a guardian of the Atlantic Sea.

To get an extended version of the episode, join the Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: Sam Cluley

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Shownotes:

Get The Rise and Fall of American Europe by Glyn Morgan

https://www.politybooks.com/bookdetail?book_slug=the-rise-and-fall-of-american-europe--9781509573202

For more on Glyn visit his Syracuse University faculty page

https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/directory/glyn-morgan

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network

https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder

This week, Jason is joined by one of his academic idols, Laura Spinney. Laura is a much-esteemed author of Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World, and her incredible newer book Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global.

PROTO tells the story of how modern Indo-European languages came into being North of the Black Sea and then traveled East—the length of the steppe, north of the Caucasus, then into the Silk Roads and the Hindu Kush—and West—from the Hungarian steppe into the forest lands of Western Europe. In this episode, Jason and Laura discuss the Yamnaya nomads who spread these languages throughout the world; the central role of Ukraine in pre-history and its centrality now and in the future as a pivot of human civilization; and as they Order the Disorder: they discuss the need for an institution to preserve global memory, so that we as humans can avoid making the same mistakes of the past.

To get the rest of the bonus content associated with this multi-part episode, i.e. a discussion about who are the Celts and Jason’s views on Proto and how ancient linguistic history can shed light on the demographic and climate change problems of today, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Get Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/proto-how-one-ancient-language-went-global-laura-spinney?variant=56326451724667

Listen - Laura Spinney: rise of the proto-Indo-Europeans https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/laura-spinney-rise-of-the-proto-indo-europeans/id1542136715?i=1000708790296

For more on Laura visit https://www.lauraspinney.com/

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network - https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder