I caught up with my guest today, Pascal Lamy, on the sidelines of the World Trade Organization's Public Forum. Pascal Lamy is a former Director-General of the WTO and the current Vice Chair of the Paris Peace Forum. He has a reputation as a big thinker, particularly on geopolitical matters.

In our conversation, we discussed some of the contours of the deepening rivalry between China and the United States on trade issues. There is an emerging trend in the geopolitics of "decoupling," which is the idea that the world may be split into two trading blocs: one led by China and the other by the United States. I kick off by asking Pascal Lamy if he believes that decoupling is inevitable at this point. We then discuss the roots, causes, and impacts of trade rivalries between the US and China, as well as the role of the European Union and how the rest of the world — that is, countries outside the US, China, and Europe — can influence debates around international trade.

Today's episode was recorded live at the World Trade Organization's headquarters in Geneva. The live taping coincided with the WTO's "Public Forum," a week-long gathering of civil society at the WTO's headquarters. It's a major event, with around 5,000 people registered from around the world, attending a series of meetings, workshops, speeches, panel discussions, and, of course, our live Global Dispatches taping.

This episode features two guests. First up is the WTO's chief economist, Ralph Ossa, who discusses his research on the global implications of widening trade disputes between major powers, such as the United States and China. I'm then joined by Anabel Gonzalez, the Vice President for Countries at the Inter-American Development Bank and a former Deputy Director General of the World Trade Organization, who offers her ideas on how trade may be harnessed to promote global equality and prosperity.

While in Geneva, I paid a visit to the U.S. Permanent Mission to interview Ambassador Bathsheba Crocker. She is the top U.S. official in Geneva, representing the United States at the many United Nations agencies and international organizations headquartered here.

I wanted to speak with Ambassador Crocker because the work of the UN in Geneva can sometimes fly under the radar, yet it directly impacts everyone on the planet, including Americans. I was interested in learning more about how the U.S. engages with agencies that most Americans have probably never heard of—such as the World Intellectual Property Organization or the International Telecommunications Union—but that nonetheless help to shape our world in ways that affect the daily lives of ordinary people.

We start by discussing how the U.S. engages with some of the more technical UN agencies in Geneva, and then move on to the Biden administration’s decision to rejoin the Human Rights Council after the previous Trump administration withdrew. We also discuss the relationship between the work of the UN here in Geneva and the UN in New York, particularly in relation to issues of peace and security.