Zach talks with Yowei Shaw and Kyle Pulley, a married couple who make the podcast Proxy together, a show that investigates "emotional mysteries" by connecting people who feel alone in a specific conundrum with a stranger who has lived through something close to it. Yowei spent about seven years creating and hosting the NPR documentary series Invisibilia before she was laid off in 2023. Kyle co-owns a recording studio in Philadelphia and plays a hands on role in Proxy, mixing episodes, managing the spreadsheets, and generally functioning, in his own words, as Yowei's bedraggled podcast spouse. They met on OkCupid, where Yowei used a flimsy pretext (she asked Kyle, an audio engineer, for help recording a narration she had already written an article about how to do herself) to get to know a guy with cute band photos.Most of the conversation traces how that early flirtation turned into a real, ongoing negotiation. When Yowei's NPR job pulled her to DC, Kyle stayed in Philadelphia with his studio and his music scene, and for years the two of them lived split lives, with Yowei commuting by Amtrak and Kyle rearranging his schedule, his living situation, and his role in the house to make it work. The bigger shift came when Yowei's income outpaced Kyle's and she became, unexpectedly, the breadwinner. She's candid that this new power showed up in their fights as an unfair trump card, and just as candid about how getting laid off in 2023 flipped the dynamic again, sending her into what she calls a complete mess of a stretch that Kyle met with support instead of shame. They talk through what stuck from couples therapy, and the concept from Yowei's individual therapist about not letting one partner absorb all the worry in a relationship, a framework they still use today around money, the future of the show, and the question of having kids.What makes the conversation land isn't that Yowei and Kyle have solved any of this. It's that they've built small, repeatable structures, a weekly "proxy meeting" to keep the podcast's business from leaking into date nights, permission to have a real blowup about once a quarter and then let it go, honesty about which gender roles still sneak up on them even though they don't believe in them, that let two strong willed, creative people keep choosing each other. It's a warm, funny, unusually honest look at a relationship that runs on ongoing negotiation rather than a moment when everything got figured out.Key TakeawaysNegotiation isn't a phase a couple moves past. Kyle says what convinced him he wanted to stay was that they always came back to the negotiating table, not that they stopped needing to.A sudden shift in who earns more money changes the emotional balance of a relationship, not just the financial one, and both partners have to consciously renegotiate power along with the budget.A recurring check in meeting, even a literal business meeting with a whiteboard, keeps one source of stress (in this case, the podcast) from leaking into every other part of a relationship.Learning your own rhythm for conflict, how often you blow up and how you repair afterward, matters more than trying to avoid conflict altogether.When one partner absorbs all the worry or responsibility for the future, there's no room for the other to step in. Deliberately pulling back can invite a partner to show up.Gender roles a couple has rejected intellectually can still resurface underneath old fights, especially around money and caretaking.Unconditional support through a layoff or career setback, without shame or pressure to hurry up, can become the turning point that redefines who carries a relationship's weight.Couples therapy can feel like it's taking sides when it's actually just holding both partners equally accountable, and that discomfort is often the useful part.Guest InfoYowei Shaw, creator and host of Proxy, an independent, mostly listener-funded podcast that investigates specific, private emotional conundrums. She calls herself an emotional investigative journalist. Before Proxy she spent years at NPR as a producer, co-host, and editorial lead on Invisibilia, with earlier stints as a temp on Fresh Air and stories for This American Life. Invisibilia was canceled and she was laid off from NPR in 2023, after which she built Proxy independently from Philadelphia.Website: https://yoweishaw.com Show: https://proxypodcast.com Instagram: @yoweishaw (personal), @proxypodcast (show) Kyle Pulley, Philadelphia music producer, audio engineer, and bassist. Co-founder and co-owner of Headroom Studios (with Joe Reinhart). Production and engineering credits include Dr. Dog, Alex G, Hop Along, Jay Som, Adult Mom, Diet Cig, Shamir, and Kississippi, among others. Also plays bass and co-writes in the band Thin Lips. He's the mixing engineer on Proxy and married to Yowei Shaw; Proxy's about page credits him as Mixing Engineer / Bedraggled Podcast Spouse.Website: https://kylepulley.netStudio: https://...
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