Eve Tushnet (writer and cofounder of Building Catholic Futures) joined Tyler, TJ, and David to talk about forms of kinship beyond marriage—specifically vows of friendship or lifelong celibate partnership. Eve reflects on her own journey to Catholicism, to serving the church as a gay Christian, and to discerning a lifelong partnership herself.

★ About Our Guest

Eve Tushnet is the author of two award-winning books on gay Christians' spiritual journeys. She is the co-founder of Building Catholic Futures, which equips Catholic institutions to serve and share the Gospel with gay people. She lives in California with her partner and children. You can email Eve at eve@buildingcatholic.org.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #78 - Eve Tushnet on Catholic Discipleship and Vows of Partnership

(00:34) Eve’s background: Secular Jewish to gay Catholic

(02:55) Building Catholic Futures for mission, for leadership

(08:07) Core ideas: Spiritual journeys, perspectives, and storytelling

(15:16) Churches: What small things can build trust?

(18:13) Imagining a future of kinship beyond marriage

(27:05) What to do with the rarity of vowed friendship

(34:09) How Eve met her partner

(39:56) How do you think about “romance” in your celibate partnership?

(48:43) Children? Taking responsibility for each other’s families

(54:13) Are you sisters? Friends? Life partners? Kin?

(57:21) Clergy to support your making of vows?

(58:18) Loving people means choosing pain

(01:07:58) Advice for people discerning kinships and partnerships

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★ Links and References

Building Catholic Futures: https://buildingcatholic.org/

Tenderness (2021): https://www.avemariapress.com/products/tenderness

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Eve’s photo: Anthony Esser | Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

In Part 2 of our conversation, Odessa offers a deeply reflective exploration of gender through philosophical, theological, and lived lenses. From mushrooms to Aristotle to Christian eschatology, Odessa invites each of us into a nuanced dialogue about embodiment, faithfulness, and what holiness and hospitality might look like amid contemporary debates about gender.

Part 1 can be found here: https://newkinship.substack.com/p/76-bearing-witness-through-change

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #77 - Odessa the Barefoot (Part 2): On Being "Social Legible as a Woman"

(02:29) "The project of pursuing womanhood"

(07:37) Self-emptying: There's no privilege with being trans

(08:25) Defining: Gender

(12:09) Do souls have a gender?

(15:56) Is being trans "maladaptive" to the social order?

(19:57) The project of manhood or womanhood: Can we opt out?

(25:50) Side B schools of thought: Identity and family

(32:43) Doesn't gender dysphoria sometimes resolve?

(39:39) Youth transition: "Not a problem we can solve politically"

(42:34) Ivan Illich: Maybe our whole society is a little gender dysphoric

(48:01) Connections to transhumanism

(53:24) Spiritual experience of queer people vs. cis people

(59:08) Ideological hospitality? In Christ there is no male and female

(01:05:41) Gendered souls? Reflections on Pauline eschatology

(01:15:38) The way of holiness in the trans experience

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

In this episode, Odessa—a transgender woman and former Anglican priest—shares her journey of transition alongside a deep wrestling with faith, vocation, and identity. She reflects on growing up with alienation and shame, the freedom she’s found in embracing her femininity, and the costs of that journey for her family, church, and relationships. Odessa also explores the intersections of gender, neurodivergence, and spirituality. We appreciate her a candid reflection on seeking wholeness without easy answers.

This is Part 1 of 2—listen to Part 2 here: [link when available]

Note: This episode uses the term “Side B” as shorthand a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #76 - Odessa pt. 1 - Aug 13, 2025

(02:45) Gender transition is a discontinuous experience

(06:04) Looking for words to share with a trusted adult

(18:34) Discontinuities: Being in seminary, married, autogynephilia

(23:18) Honoring prior commitments by not outwardly transitioning

(27:03) “My metaphysics does not allow” for hormones to be this effective...

(37:24) The project(s) of femininity and womanhood

(40:25) Theological traditions and eccentric Anglican priests

(43:54) Same-sex attraction was different than gender/trans experience for me

(46:46) Being released from prior commitments: Trans impact on family, church

(56:19) Bearing witness: ministering to others

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

David Frank and TJ talked with historian Dr. Dan Hummel about why many Evangelical Christians support the modern state of Israel—and its implications for kinship between Christians and Jews. Dan traces the theological roots of Christian Zionism, the rise of dispensational theology, and some political and social effects we see today. We also covered how Christians have related to Jewish communities more broadly, and what kinship can or should look like for us, going forward.

★ About Our Guest

Daniel G. Hummel is the director of the Lumen Center in Madison, WI and a research fellow in the History Department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He received his PhD in American Religious History from UW-Madison. He is the author of The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle Over the End Times Shaped a Nation (Eerdmans, 2023) and *Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and U.S.-Israeli Relations* (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2019). You can also find him at www.danielghummel.com.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #75 - Christian-Jewish Kinship and Theology: Dan Hummel on Christian Zionism(03:24) Dan’s history with Israel and Evangelicals(09:50) Ask an academic: define “evangelical”(13:47) Ask an academic: define “Christian Zionism”(17:31) Christian Zionism goes back to the 16th century(20:54) What IS dispensationalism?(25:13) Dispensationalism: So, is God a polygamist?(28:08) What does “supporting Israel” mean to Christian Zionists?(33:04) Zionism also relates: Judeo-Christian values, anti-Islam, American politics(39:21) What theology is needed, to be pro-peace for Israel/Palestine? (47:27) How can, and should, Christians think about their relationship to Jews? (01:00:50) Final thoughts: What we hold sacred

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★ Links and References

* The “Bebbington Quadrilateral” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_W._Bebbington

* For some of the political dynamics to Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s article in New Lines Magazine on the political unrest in Israel, pre-Oct 7: newlinesmag.com/argument/israels-current-crisis-exposes-christian-zionisms-contradictory-ideals

* For some theological and interfaith dimensions of Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s 2018 essay for Aeon: aeon.co/essays/christian-zionism-the-interfaith-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight

* G. Douglas Young, the founder of Bridges for Peace, a prominent Christian Zionist organization, wrote The Bride and the Wife (1960).

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Taka Chan has been a queer, celibate Christian in campus ministry long enough to have seen both deep friendships and losses. He joined David and TJ to share stories of friends, pastors, and communities who have walked with him—and those who haven’t. We hope you’re encouraged by his reflections on God’s provision, even in the midst of uncertainty about what comes next.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

About Our Guest

Taka Chan was born and raised in rural Hawaiʻi and has been working in college campus ministry for 18 years. He loves gardening, cooking for large groups of people, and taking classes at the Y with a bunch of grandmas. Ask him about his recent TV binges (The Pitt, Pachinko, Abbott Elementary) and what homework he’d suggest if you intend to visit Hawaiʻi. You can email him at [takachanaloha -at- gmail.com].

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #74 - “If We Say We Love LGBT People...” Taka Chan on College Ministry and Faithfulness

(01:11) Taka Chan: Hawai’i, family, coming out to myself and others

(06:55) College in the time of ex-gay thought

(11:55) “I try to be gentle with my younger self”

(18:00) Single and married to everyone

(23:49) Pastors going to bat for you

(32:02) What do you do when friendships fail?

(41:30) Evangelical ministry: If we’re saying we love LGBT people...how?

(56:17) An employee resource group: we won’t be frozen in fear any more

(01:00:46) Intersections: Being queer, being Japanese and Chinese

(01:07:52) Why are you not Side A?

(01:11:55) Being an “elder” in the Side B movement, and those who came before

(01:15:20) What’s the future for you? (Intentional community?)

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★ Links and References

Two Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!:

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship or newkinship.substack.com

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Sometimes--as in the case of Rev. Zach from Ep. 73--we record an episode with folks and then, before we can release it, life takes interesting turns. Since talking to us 6 months ago, Zach is in the process of leaving the Episcopal denomination in the US and considering his ministerial call in a new way. He stopped by (metaphorically) to update us and share some more thoughts. We’re grateful for his ongoing discernment and willingness to bring us along!

Reverend Zach joins TJ and David to share his unexpected journey from being in a same-sex marriage (Side A) to embracing a historic Christian sexual ethic (Side B). Raised Roman Catholic and shaped by a call to ministry, Zach talked about the questions that surfaced during seminary, how getting married changed his understanding of marriage, his longing for friendship, and the theologians and writers who shaped his thinking.

We appreciate Rev. Zach’s honesty, insight, and experience with navigating life and ministry as a Side B priest in a largely Side A denomination.

—What’s happened since? Come back on 12/11 for a bonus follow-up episode from Zach since this episode: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/bonus-catching-up-with-zach-6-months

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ About Our Guest

Rev. Zach ministers to the people of Long Island, NY and recently wrapped up his chaplaincy residency at Stony Brook University Hospital. You’ll most likely find him deep in a Jacques Ellul book or rooting for his favorite team, the Detroit Tigers. You can contact him on Instagram: @zach_enthusiastic

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #73 - Theologies of Marriage and Friendship: Rev. Zach’s Story from Side A to Side B

(02:10) How old are you? And other awkward life questions

(17:53) A call to the priesthood

(27:13) “Have you heard of Wesley Hill?” (and many others)

(35:12) William Stringfellow had a big impact

(41:44) Becoming Side B, engaging Side A

(48:47) Was the breakup more relational or theological?

(55:27) It’s about the covenantal nature of God

(59:58) Does your Episcopalian church know you’re side B?

(01:05:01) Why stay in a “big tent” church?

(01:08:03) Beyond Side A: What does a marriage covenant mean?

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Dear listeners, join me on a special story with my neighbor Martina. She has fled to the US as an asylum-seeker in fear of her life from persecution and murderous extortion. Since then, she’s become not only a friend, but a partner in neighborhood hospitality and church community!

Her ability to stay here is literally a matter of life and death, so some friends and I raised funds to help cover her legal fees so she could be represented in immigration court and fight to stay here. I'm grateful to God for all who helped leverage their resources to support this case. Thanks friends!

Sincerely,

David

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction to Martina’s Story

(04:15) Martina’s Life in Ecuador

(05:31) Martina’s Entrepreneurial Journey

(12:21) Facing Extortion and Corruption

(21:18) Fleeing to the United States

(22:24) Life in the United States

(25:04) Finding Hope and Community

(34:08) Reflections and Future Hopes