David Bennett has a lot to say about erotic relationships with God—but it’s probably not what you think! As a former atheistic gay activist now turned celibate gay theologian and follower of Jesus, David’s reflections on Christian sexuality and discipleship are both personal and deeply informed by Christian historical tradition. David sat down with TJ and David Frank to talk about a theology of desire, Christian thinkers from Augustine to Aquinas to today, Side B activism, and practical discipleship for Christians today. Join us!

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides” in our conversation: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ About Our Guest

Dr. David Bennett recently completed his doctorate (DPhil) in theology at Oxford University where he now works as a postdoctoral research fellow in the Theology and Religion Faculty. His thesis is in the process of being published, tentatively entitled, Queering the Queer: A Theological Ethics of Same-Sex Desire and Gay Celibacy in Contemporary Anglican Thought. He specializes in the relationship between the Trinity, Christian ethics, patristics, queer theology, discipleship and contemporary Anglican theology, especially the role of desire in knowing God. David also serves as a theologian in residence at Reality San Francisco and Church of the City, New York, and an Associate Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall. Find him on Instagram or X (@DavidACBennett) or on his website at dacbennett.com.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction(s)

(05:00) The heart desires, the will chooses, the mind justifies

(16:11) "You're just denying your sexuality" - defining “erotic”

(25:45) How many kinds of love are there?

(33:04) Eros and fear-of (or "Lutheran pietistic excess")

(44:25) We need more Side B activism

(56:58) What's going on with the Church of England?

(01:13:20) Beyond an “ethic”: pursuing personal integration

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★ Links and References

Eros and Agape (1930, 1936) by Anders Nygren (Wikipedia)

Deus Caritas est (2005), Pope Benedict XVI (Wikipedia)

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support…

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P. ★

It’s hard to know how to approach a topic that is simultaneously so personal and so full of theological implications. We, David Frank and TJ Espinoza, open up about our developing thoughts on trans experiences as it relates to the complexities of gender as both a social construct and part of biblical theology. In light of this, how might Christians consider ideas around third genders? How should they address violence against trans individuals? Are chosen pronouns an opportunity to manifest neighborliness or courage? Listen in as we try to lay some foundations, as we begin to wade into these sensitive challenges.

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Timestamps

(00:38) Today's snapshot: a preliminary-thoughts episode

(06:43) Defining Transgender

(08:00) Definitions and cultural uses of sex vs. gender

(21:41) Acknowledging intersex

(24:06) No violence is ever Christian

(25:49) Pronouns, but we didn't get into it

(26:43) Sex isn't a social construction, but gender is

(32:43) "Third gender" concepts in different cultures

(50:20) Questions we still have for trans people

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Transformation is a tricky word in Christian circles, particularly when we’re talking about sexuality. What does it mean to be “transformed”? For a gay man, does it mean “no longer gay”? And what does that mean??

We talked with Nate Oyloe and Luca Jo Groppoli from Agape First Ministries, an organization dedicated to discipling and seeking God’s transformation. In our framing on this podcast, we would call their organization “side X”—that is, generally pursuing and seeing the good in people becoming “ex gay.” Since this isn’t a position we (David and TJ) hold, we were eager to have a conversation about our similarities and differences: personal stories, theological and pastoral approaches, and what the heck transformation could mean. It’s a tough one.

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About Our Guests

Pastor Nate Oyloe is the founder and director of Agape First Ministries. Nate has ministered to the sexually and relationally broken since 2000. He has taught nationally on issues of gender and the redemptive power of God. He and his wife, two sons, and daughter live in Minneapolis, MN.Luca Jo Groppoli is an ordained graduate of Christ for the Nation's Bible College. Luca serves as the associate director with Agape First Ministries and is passionate about disciple making and sharing that Jesus can and does, in fact, transform people, sharing her own story of living as a transgender male for over three decades.

www.agapefirstministries.org

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side X” and “Side B” (and others) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

Timestamps

(00:00) Intro

(00:46) Introducing Nate and Luca

(08:09) What has finding freedom meant to you?

(10:59) Why Agape First? What is it you do?

(17:04) What's the nature of same-sex attraction: psychological, traumatic, biological, spiritual?

(36:10) Transformation: shifting away from same-sex attraction?

(57:06) Praying for healing: over disabilities, over sexuality?

(01:01:52) Statistics and experience: does being "ex-gay" actually stick?

(01:09:58) Is side B more dangerous than side A?

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Join us for a special in-person episode where we, TJ and David, share highlights and insights from our time at the Revoice Conference. We discuss the conference's mission, our personal experiences, and key takeaways on fostering community and kinship within the church. Honestly, words utterly fail to express all that Revoice meant for us and the other 500+ who attended.

Highlights mentioned:

* Times of Worship

* Worship Leader Wes

* Misty Irons and David Bennet

* Affinity Groups

* Breakout engagement

* Hospitality and overall conference schedule

* Connecting with incredible people

A few other highlights not mentioned:

* Multicultural leadership

* Multilingual and ASL representation

* Breakout by Sister Heather Kristine

* Brenna Blain’s Francis Chan vibes

- Link to Revoice Conference videos (free for one year!): https://revoicelibrary.sardius.live/

Coming in hot, folks… David Frank and TJ Espinoza reflect on sex positivity and how they see parts of the Christian Bible interacting with sexual desire, goodness, transcendence, and meaning. There’s nothing simple about the relationships between sex, marriage, having kids, pleasure, and our spiritual callings. But in those tensions, we also see goodness and fruitfulness. We hope that this discussion prompts more thinking for you all on what a comprehensive Christian sexual ethic can look like.

This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠.

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Timestamps

(03:23) What Sex Positive Usually Means

(10:48) Evangelical Churches Are Just As Pro-Sex

(16:55) Genesis, Song of Songs, Leviticus, Matthew, Revelation

(17:51) Sexual Difference in the Garden (Genesis)

(19:02) Consent Is Biblical (1st Corinthians)

(20:13) Erotic Poetry Isn't Smut (Song of Songs)

(26:04) Sex Is...Transcendent?...But NOT Worship (Leviticus)

(45:33) Jesus: Yeah, but... there's no marriage in heaven (Matthew)

(51:32) The (Sexless?) Bride of Christ (Revelation)

(53:31) Let's Hear It for... Sex Mediocrity!

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Links and References

We referenced these sections of the Bible in this episode:

* Genesis 2-3

* Songs of Songs/Solomon (whole book)

* Leviticus 15:18

* Matthew 22:30

* Revelation 19

* James 1:17

* Isaiah 56:3-5

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Coming right up, some hot takes from Greg Coles on:

* Why would you call yourself gay if you’re a Christian? That’s not your identity…

* Wouldn’t it be better if you got married (to someone of the opposite sex)?

* How do I talk to [person] about [LGBTQ sexuality topic we disagree on]?

If you are gay and Christian, or know someone who’s gay and a Christian, somebody in your life is asking these questions, and a whole lot more. This episode is for you, for sharing, and for further discussion.

Background: In Spring 2024, Greg Coles talked with a group of college students and campus ministers. We thought it was such a great primer on thinking Christianly about sexuality that we wanted to share it with you, slightly echo-y room and all.

This is not the end of the conversation—please reach out with your questions, comments, and further discussion!

About Our Guest

Greg is the author of Single, Gay, Christian: A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity and No Longer Strangers: Finding Belonging in a World of Alienation. You can find most of his creative activities curated at gregorycoles.com and at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender.

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Timestamps

(02:42) Greg on writing Single, Gay, Christian and his PhD

(05:01) Why use "gay" to describe yourself as a Christian?

(09:34) A vision for marriage-free abstinence and delight in the body

(17:01) Theological vs practical questions on sexuality

(20:30) Changes in sexual orientation: happens? is normative? Mixed orientation marriages?

(25:12) Marriage and singleness as complements

(30:08) How am I a gift to the body around me?

(33:16) Q&A: Straight Catholic priests can CHOOSE celibacy or marriage

(37:05) Q&A: Concerns about taking the identity of being gay

(43:13) Q&A: How do I love my lesbian sister well?

(46:53) Q&A: Discipleship convos: I can't believe in Jesus if it means THIS for LGBTQ people...

(51:46) Q&A: Sharing the gospel in an identity politics world

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Links and References

Gay and Catholic and Tenderness by Eve Tushnet

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Tim Otto is a man of intentional commitments: he lives in intentional Christian community; he pastors a church in San Francisco; he’s also gay and celibate, while still affirming gay marriage (Side A). Tim talked with co-hosts TJ and David Frank about his book Oriented to Faith, compassionate approaches, “third way” communities and “disputable” theological differences, celibate partnerships, and the importance of close community living.

Tim was a kind and engaging dialogue partner and we loved having this conversation with him! No matter where you land on the faith and sexuality topics, we hope our discussion ministers to you also.

About Our Guest

Tim Otto has lived in an intentional Christian community called Church of the Sojourners for 34 years and is one of its co-pastors. He has a Master of Theology degree from Duke Divinity School, is the author of Oriented to Faith: Transforming the Conflict over Gay Relationships, and loves walking around the Mission District of San Francisco, where he lives. You can find his recent writing on Substack at “Living in Extraordinary Love”: https://timotto.substack.com

For $10 off Revoice registration, use PROMO CODE: RevoicePod

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Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” Here’s a quick summary:

* "Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.

Timestamps

(0:00) Intro

(1:13) Tim's book: encouraging dialogue and love across sides

(8:03) Idolatry of the "traditional family"

(16:11) Taking a vow of celibacy as a side A gay man

(21:38) Our takes: on the authority and continuity of Scripture

(34:27) What traditionalist viewpoints do you find most compelling?

(38:54) What has moved you toward an affirming position?

(42:55) Are celibate partnerships gnostic?

(52:56) What makes a healthy/acceptable marriage? (same-sex, polyamory, polygamy…)

(1:07:18) How does San Francisco influence you?

(1:14:24) Bonus question: the "common purse" in Tim's community

Links and References

For your easier searching…

* Sacred Cows: Exploring Contemporary Idolatry by J.A. Walter

* The Drama of Scripture: Finding Our Place in the Biblical Story by Craig Bartholemew and Michael Goheen

* Kevin Vanhoozer, theologian

* Tenderness: A Gay Christian’s Guide to Unlearning Rejection and Experiencing God’s Extravagant Love by Eve Tushnet

* “Century of the Self” documentary is on Youtube

* Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul’s

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena