In light of the Colorado Supreme Court case Charles v. Salazar and prior conversation with Julia Sadusky and other conversations with Side X guests, we dig into Conversion Therapy (also called Reparative or Reintegrative Therapy), particularly how it intersects notions around the fluidity of sexuality. Reports on sexual fluidity opens new questions to the ethics of conversation therapies, and maybe different analysis has to why the “change is possible” narratives (e.g. Exodus Ministries) were so destructive. But maybe alternative approaches like “bisexual responsiveness” via Camille Paglia (see the linked Cracks in Postmodernity essay) suggest a different outlook on the whole affair, and open doors to intriguing considerations of the queer experience and same-sex friendship/romantic friendship.

References:

A fascinating article with so many intriguing quotes:

Cracks in Postmodernity: Conversion Therapy vs. Bisexual Responsiveness

Our episodes about/with Side X guests:

#54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

#48 - What Is Transformation? with Agape First Ministries

#41 - Unexpected Shifts: Josh’s Story of Prayer, Healing, and Attraction

#35 - Marco Casanova on Integration, Healing, and Orientation

Time Stamps:

00:00 Have you thought of joining us at Revoice?

02:31 Kinship Lab on Conversion Therapy

04:09 Sexual Fluidity Debate

06:33 Tyler’s Harvard Story

10:46 Exodus and Pray Away Documentary

14:39 Modern Reorientation Claims

19:14 Identity Versus Desire/Attraction

24:25 Side B Growth and Chastity

28:19 Defining Attraction, Sanctification and Bisexual Responsiveness

35:36 On Noticing Beauty and Desire

40:53 Paglia and Rigid Labels

45:50 Sexual Category Origins, Queer Identity, and Fluidity

51:29 Friendship Versus Therapy

57:14 Chastity and Same Sex Love

01:04:35 Romantic Friendship Debate

01:06:07 Humility and Closing Thoughts

Our friend Neth is a father, grandfather, and licensed counselor—and at the first Revoice conference in 2018, he came out to himself as gay, at the age of 54. In this episode, Neth reflected on growing up in an abusive Christian home and how this experience shaped decades of his life. Speaking both personally and professionally, he talked with us about mixed-orientation marriages, why naming yourself “gay” isn’t merely negative self-talk but an act of honesty, and why he ultimately finds Side B compelling. See also (01:05:42): Neth’s advice for people considering therapy.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” But just briefly, here’s how people often use these terms:

* “Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Beyond that agreement, in essence:

* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience using a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.

* ”Side X” tends to emphasize the idea that sexual orientation can change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.”

* “Side Y” tends to avoid any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.”

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #80 - Neth’s Story: Coming Out of the Closet at 54

(03:44) About Neth; and coming out after 54 years

(18:46) Suppressing or repressing, and walking “normally”

(31:41) A mixed orientation marriage, “arousal templates”

(43:55) Healing looks like accepting myself

(50:03) Gay marriage can’t produce babies

(57:09) Is saying I’m gay “negative self talk,” or a map of reality?

(01:00:45) Seeking church family

(01:05:42) Encouragements for listeners: Get in therapy

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Logan Morrison is a trans man who leads Kaleidoscope’s trans outreach ministry in New York City. Logan talked with TJ and Tyler about coming out as trans and losing a job over it, and how Christian gospel and Christian communities had positive and negative impacts on him and many others. Tune in also for conversations about: how we distinguish experiences of gender vs. sexuality (”are you trans, or are you just lesbian?”), barriers for trans people in churches (exclusion, pronouns, bathrooms, stereotypes), and some practical steps for Christians wanting to serve and engage trans people (whether or not they’re Christians).

About Our Guest: Logan (he/him) serves as the Trans Care Specialist and Community Outreach Coordinator at Kaleidoscope Ministries, where he walks alongside trans individuals with compassion, advocacy, and faith-centered support. Through unexpected turns in his own journey, Logan discerned a calling to steward his trans experience as a bridge for creating space to share the hope of the gospel with other trans folks in authentic and relational ways. He lives in NYC with his chosen family and three dogs.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #79 - Logan Morrison on Practical Steps for Reaching the Transgender Community

(01:56) About Logan

(03:45) Moving into trans ministry with Kaleidoscope

(10:35) Coming to a definition of “trans”--and of the gospel

(19:54) Barriers and misunderstandings: Being asked to leave, politicization

(26:51) What’s the difference between sexuality and gender experience?

(35:17) How’d you decide you were trans and not lesbian?

(49:56) How my theology leads loving outreach to trans people

(52:24) Advice to Christians wanting to engage/support trans people

(59:44) What gives me hope: Some trans people don’t have baggage with the gospel

(01:03:30) Words for trans listeners

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★ Links and References

Ragamuffin Gospel: https://www.amazon.com/Ragamuffin-Gospel-Brennan-Manning/dp/1576737160

Kaleidoscope USA: https://www.kaleidoscopeusa.org/

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

—

★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Tyler Parker, David Frank, and TJ introduce a new monthly-ish podcast format called the Kinship Lab, created to reflect on recent interviews/events or other emerging ideas. Comment below on any questions or topics you’d like to see in the future.

In this first Kinship Lab, they reflect on a recent two-day summit of a handful of Side B leaders, emphasizing growing capacity for fruitful conversation amid differences and experienced trauma. Questions at play: What is Side B? How should Side B engage trans and gender-dysphoria experiences theologically and pastorally? How can Side B respond to ongoing debates about celibate partnerships? Can Side B leadership develop breadth, depth, accountability, and maybe even create a common covenant? Is Side B a gift for Q/SSA people, or for the whole church?

00:00 Welcome to Kinship Lab

02:23 Future of Side B | Why Call It Project

04:25 Summit Setup and Hopes

05:18 Building Trust Through Tension

09:47 Defining Side B Today

14:11 Gender Questions Rising

17:16 Celibate Partnerships Debate

18:53 Learning From Experts

24:01 Global Voices Needed

26:38 Leader Accountability and Unity

29:51 Movement Longevity and Visibility

32:00 Towards a Side B Covenant

33:28 Gender and Queer Culture

35:24 Unity and Accountability

40:57 Why Statements Matter

42:56 Side B as Liberatory Gift

44:45 Theology Group Takeaways

51:44 Closing and Next Topics

55:14 Listener Feedback and Farewell

Eve Tushnet (writer and cofounder of Building Catholic Futures) joined Tyler, TJ, and David to talk about forms of kinship beyond marriage—specifically vows of friendship or lifelong celibate partnership. Eve reflects on her own journey to Catholicism, to serving the church as a gay Christian, and to discerning a lifelong partnership herself.

★ About Our Guest

Eve Tushnet is the author of two award-winning books on gay Christians' spiritual journeys. She is the co-founder of Building Catholic Futures, which equips Catholic institutions to serve and share the Gospel with gay people. She lives in California with her partner and children. You can email Eve at eve@buildingcatholic.org.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #78 - Eve Tushnet on Catholic Discipleship and Vows of Partnership

(00:34) Eve’s background: Secular Jewish to gay Catholic

(02:55) Building Catholic Futures for mission, for leadership

(08:07) Core ideas: Spiritual journeys, perspectives, and storytelling

(15:16) Churches: What small things can build trust?

(18:13) Imagining a future of kinship beyond marriage

(27:05) What to do with the rarity of vowed friendship

(34:09) How Eve met her partner

(39:56) How do you think about “romance” in your celibate partnership?

(48:43) Children? Taking responsibility for each other’s families

(54:13) Are you sisters? Friends? Life partners? Kin?

(57:21) Clergy to support your making of vows?

(58:18) Loving people means choosing pain

(01:07:58) Advice for people discerning kinships and partnerships

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★ Links and References

Building Catholic Futures: https://buildingcatholic.org/

Tenderness (2021): https://www.avemariapress.com/products/tenderness

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Eve’s photo: Anthony Esser | Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

In Part 2 of our conversation, Odessa offers a deeply reflective exploration of gender through philosophical, theological, and lived lenses. From mushrooms to Aristotle to Christian eschatology, Odessa invites each of us into a nuanced dialogue about embodiment, faithfulness, and what holiness and hospitality might look like amid contemporary debates about gender.

Part 1 can be found here: https://newkinship.substack.com/p/76-bearing-witness-through-change

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #77 - Odessa the Barefoot (Part 2): On Being "Social Legible as a Woman"

(02:29) "The project of pursuing womanhood"

(07:37) Self-emptying: There's no privilege with being trans

(08:25) Defining: Gender

(12:09) Do souls have a gender?

(15:56) Is being trans "maladaptive" to the social order?

(19:57) The project of manhood or womanhood: Can we opt out?

(25:50) Side B schools of thought: Identity and family

(32:43) Doesn't gender dysphoria sometimes resolve?

(39:39) Youth transition: "Not a problem we can solve politically"

(42:34) Ivan Illich: Maybe our whole society is a little gender dysphoric

(48:01) Connections to transhumanism

(53:24) Spiritual experience of queer people vs. cis people

(59:08) Ideological hospitality? In Christ there is no male and female

(01:05:41) Gendered souls? Reflections on Pauline eschatology

(01:15:38) The way of holiness in the trans experience

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

In this episode, Odessa—a transgender woman and former Anglican priest—shares her journey of transition alongside a deep wrestling with faith, vocation, and identity. She reflects on growing up with alienation and shame, the freedom she’s found in embracing her femininity, and the costs of that journey for her family, church, and relationships. Odessa also explores the intersections of gender, neurodivergence, and spirituality. We appreciate her a candid reflection on seeking wholeness without easy answers.

This is Part 1 of 2—listen to Part 2 here: [link when available]

Note: This episode uses the term “Side B” as shorthand a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #76 - Odessa pt. 1 - Aug 13, 2025

(02:45) Gender transition is a discontinuous experience

(06:04) Looking for words to share with a trusted adult

(18:34) Discontinuities: Being in seminary, married, autogynephilia

(23:18) Honoring prior commitments by not outwardly transitioning

(27:03) “My metaphysics does not allow” for hormones to be this effective...

(37:24) The project(s) of femininity and womanhood

(40:25) Theological traditions and eccentric Anglican priests

(43:54) Same-sex attraction was different than gender/trans experience for me

(46:46) Being released from prior commitments: Trans impact on family, church

(56:19) Bearing witness: ministering to others

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

David Frank and TJ talked with historian Dr. Dan Hummel about why many Evangelical Christians support the modern state of Israel—and its implications for kinship between Christians and Jews. Dan traces the theological roots of Christian Zionism, the rise of dispensational theology, and some political and social effects we see today. We also covered how Christians have related to Jewish communities more broadly, and what kinship can or should look like for us, going forward.

★ About Our Guest

Daniel G. Hummel is the director of the Lumen Center in Madison, WI and a research fellow in the History Department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He received his PhD in American Religious History from UW-Madison. He is the author of The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle Over the End Times Shaped a Nation (Eerdmans, 2023) and *Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and U.S.-Israeli Relations* (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2019). You can also find him at www.danielghummel.com.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #75 - Christian-Jewish Kinship and Theology: Dan Hummel on Christian Zionism(03:24) Dan’s history with Israel and Evangelicals(09:50) Ask an academic: define “evangelical”(13:47) Ask an academic: define “Christian Zionism”(17:31) Christian Zionism goes back to the 16th century(20:54) What IS dispensationalism?(25:13) Dispensationalism: So, is God a polygamist?(28:08) What does “supporting Israel” mean to Christian Zionists?(33:04) Zionism also relates: Judeo-Christian values, anti-Islam, American politics(39:21) What theology is needed, to be pro-peace for Israel/Palestine? (47:27) How can, and should, Christians think about their relationship to Jews? (01:00:50) Final thoughts: What we hold sacred

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★ Links and References

* The “Bebbington Quadrilateral” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_W._Bebbington

* For some of the political dynamics to Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s article in New Lines Magazine on the political unrest in Israel, pre-Oct 7: newlinesmag.com/argument/israels-current-crisis-exposes-christian-zionisms-contradictory-ideals

* For some theological and interfaith dimensions of Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s 2018 essay for Aeon: aeon.co/essays/christian-zionism-the-interfaith-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight

* G. Douglas Young, the founder of Bridges for Peace, a prominent Christian Zionist organization, wrote The Bride and the Wife (1960).

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

—

★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★