Many of us fall into L&D - and some of us make sacrifices in order to do so. At a time when many of us have faced layoffs and unexpected setbacks, we wanted to spotlight career journeys that had tough times and what our guests did to overcome these. In this episode, I’m speaking with Jennifer Sutherland, Global Leader of Culture, Learning & Development at Trustwave, about her incredible career and the lessons we can all learn from her.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Very few people follow a linear path into L&D. This is good because they bring varied business skills to the role.

• If you do not have any training or L&D experience to put on your resume seek it out. Jennifer shares several ways to do that.

• Be authentic, especially during presentations, and develop your own style.

• Listen to feedback but recognise who the outliers are and factor that in before deciding whether to pivot.

• Take your time when switching roles. Lots of L&D professionals inadvertently end up in a role that is not a good fit for them.

• Use other L&D professionals as a sounding board and help each other.

• Understand how humans learn and stay up to date with the research.

• Stay curious and stay up to date with the tech.

• Build good relationships with all stakeholders and network.

BEST MOMENTS

“You created the opportunity that helped you gather the experience that you needed to be taken seriously by those L&D hiring managers.”

“Words matter … how you fill in the silence is so critical.”

“Frankly, that role was not the right fit for me.”

“The career path that I'm on looks bananas, but gave me all these skills, resources, knowledge, community and networks.”

“Create your own sandwich of tech to create what you need.”

“The world limits you already. Don't be the one that limits yourself.”

Jennifer Sutherland Bio

Jennifer is the Global Leader of Culture, Learning & Development at Trustwave, where she is responsible for driving employee engagement and developing enriching learning experiences. Her team focuses on initiatives such as change management and sales enablement, essential for a dynamic global workforce across EMEA, APAC, and North America.

Concurrently, as an Adjunct Professor at Davenport University, Jennifer leverages her expertise to educate the next generation in HR and Learning & Development.

You can follow and connect with Jennifer via:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifernsutherland

Website: https://sutherlandtalentsolutions.com

The Nonlinear Training Career article - https://trainingindustry.com/magazine/spring-2024/the-nonlinear-training-career

https://www.toastmasters.org

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home

ABOUT THE HOST

David James

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D.

CONTACT METHOD

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjameslinkedin

• L&D Collective: https://360learning.com/the-l-and-d-collective

• Blog: https://360learning.com/blog

• L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home

L&D can sometimes fail to make sense to even the most seasoned L&D leader but what about our colleagues in other departments? What do they make of our products and approaches? What do they make of our inability to equate our spend and effort to ROI? Well Ajay Pangarkar can tell us. His frustrations with L&D had him lean in from his Accounting background and tell us. But not just by heckling. But by giving us advice. In this episode, Ajay will tell us how we’re perceived and what we can do to better measure the impact of what we do.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Using business terminology, you are not 100% familiar with undermines your credibility.

• Knowledge is now genuinely driving businesses, so L&D is seen as far more important.

• Focus on the end result.

• Use the Kaizen approach – keep asking why.

• Become a listener, get into people´s heads and skill them up in a non-intrusive way.

• Data analytics is essential to L&D.

• Work with your financial team to deliver your business case.

BEST MOMENTS

“With all respect and love for Learning and Development, they are the nerds in the schoolyard trying to fit in with the cool kids.”

“Nobody in the organization cares about learning. They care about the doing.”

“We are in the golden age of L&D.”

“I always say they cut their budget because you didn't deliver value.”

Ajay Pangarkar Bio

Ajay is the author of four books, with the most recent titled, “Learning Metrics: How to Measure the Impact of Organizational Learning" (Kogan Page). He’s an award-winning author receiving multiple prestigious TrainingIndustry Readership and Editors’ Award, eLearning Magazine’s Learning Champion, and the World Training Development Congress named Ajay their “Distinguished Trainer”. He is a broadcast media commentator addressing workplace performance issues and contributor to leading international publications.

Ajay is also a Fellow of the Chartered Professional Accountants (FCPA, FCMA), Certified Training and Development Professional (CTDP), and a world-renowned workplace performance authority on integrating employee performance strategies within operational environments.

On top of all this, he is a professor at the Sprott School of Business (Carleton University) and Smith School of Business (Queens University) as well as being actively involved with workplace learning working closely with LinkedIn Learning.

You can follow and connect with Ajay via:

Twitter: @bizlearningdude

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ajaypangarkar/

Book: https://www.koganpage.com/hr-learning-development/learning-metrics-9781398615366

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D.

CONTACT METHOD

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjameslinkedin/

• L&D Collective: https://360learning.com/the-l-and-d-collective/

• Blog: https://360learning.com/blog/

• L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

A governance structure in L&D is a move from implicit to explicit practices. It brings rigour and structure to decision-making practices that would otherwise be nebulous and ill-defined. It is a recognition that L&D is, fundamentally, a strategic function – equally critical for the organisation’s growth and for its survival in turbulent times. But it doesn’t exist in every L&D team.

In this episode, Noah and Tom break down why it is essential and how we, as L&D, get to grips with it.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Governance aligns L&D more closely with business objectives and ensures consistent, scalable impact.

• The decision on where the L&D budget is spent has to be made by the business so that the budget can be allocated to training that generates profit.

• Governance includes careful management of your key constituencies and relationships.

• Alignment, communication, consistency, planning, measurement, execution, tracking, and project management are all equally important.

• Ask yourself what does better look like? Properly define what you are aiming for.

• New technologies are not always better, be sure to properly assess them.

• Good governance is never 100% done, it is an ongoing process.

• Taking a “solid core, flexible edges” approach to governance works well for most organizations.

• Be brave. It´s worth a little bit of pain to make big gains.

BEST MOMENTS

“Governance is about aligning learning to the strategic objectives and needs of the business… so that you can demonstrate the value of that learning function.”

“You have to create consistency in the learner experience .”

“AI is going to be a lightning rod.”

“Shiny object syndrome is the enemy of good governance.”

“We not only define what governance is, but we define what's what it's not.”

Noah Rabinowitz Bio

With 25+ years of experience in learning and leadership development, Noah has been Chief Learning Officer at Intel and Moderna and consulted globally with Korn Ferry and Deloitte. He specializes in innovative learning strategies, executive development, and large-scale digital upskilling programs, driving impactful results across industries.

Tom Kupetis Bio

Tom brings over 25 years of management consulting and learning solutions experience with Fortune 500 companies. As Executive Vice President at St. Charles Consulting Group, he oversees the firm’s go-to-market strategy. Previously, he held senior roles at Xerox Learning Services and Intellinex LLC (EY subsidiary).

Report: https://learningforum.substack.com/p/clo-lift-governance-as-a-strategic

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D.

CONTACT METHOD

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjameslinkedin/

• L&D Collective: https://360learning.com/the-l-and-d-collective/

• Blog: https://360learning.com/blog/

• L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

CLOs today must ask: Is our work building lasting, relevant skills right now? Are we delivering business impact? Is the work building or diminishing L&Ds effectiveness and credibility? If the answer to any of these questions is no, then perhaps it is time for a skills accelerator approach. This is the title of a CLO Lift report and in this episode, we unpack what it means and why it’s critical to us, in L&D, but more importantly to our organisations and employees.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• L&D professionals need to become true business partners instead of just trainers and focus on the development aspect of their role.
• When you focus on data you are effective, and the rest of the business understands that data.
• Leverage AI and simulations to deliver fast.
• Understand the relevance of each skill. What is it about that skill or new technology that will enable the learner to do their job better?
• When your business does something new, be a part of the rollout so truly relevant learning is available from the start.

BEST MOMENTS

“Capability building can't just be through learning programs. It needs to be truly employee-centric.”

“If we can spend less time churning content, we'll be able to spend more time developing people.”

“The scope of an L&D leader can no longer be just what training program.”

Heather Stefanski

Heather Stefanski is a Partner and Chief Learning and Development Officer at McKinsey & Company, overseeing Learning & Development for 45,000+ global colleagues and leading the People Data and Analytics Teams.

During 28 years at McKinsey, she has held various roles in talent acquisition, professional development, and learning. She has an MBA and MA in Education from Stanford University, and a BS in Engineering and Operations Research from Princeton University.

Bjorn Billhardt

Bjorn Billhardt is co-author of The 12-Week MBA and CEO of Abilitie which has trained 100,000 learners in 50 countries, including rising leaders at Fortune 500 companies like Coca-Cola and GE.

He also co-founded Enspire Learning a custom e-learning development company and was a consultant and corporate trainer for McKinsey & Company.

Bjorn holds a BA from the University of Texas and an MBA from Harvard Business School. He has served on multiple boards, including The Magellan International School, Spa Partisan, the Advisory Board of the University of Texas at Austin School for Undergraduate Studies and the UT-HDO Program.

Report: https://learningforum.substack.com/p/clo-lift-the-skills-accelerator

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home

ABOUT THE HOST

David James

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D.

CONTACT METHOD

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjameslinkedin
• L&D Collective: https://360learning.com/the-l-and-d-collective
• Blog: https://360learning.com/blog
• L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home

L&D leaders in large organizations often cite a lack of time as the main barrier to upskilling and reskilling. While increasing learning hours is important, the CLO Lift team found that time is not the most critical factor. Instead, the quality of learning has equal or greater influence on performance than the quantity of time spent. Rather than focusing solely on hours, business leaders and L&D professionals should emphasize value. This episode explores these insights with Lisa Christensen and Huw Newton-Hill.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• CLO Lift is a community of 20 CLOs who have got together to solve the biggest unresolved challenges in the L&D industry.
• You have to create true value before enough time will be allocated to employee learning.
• If you are not 100% in step with the business the training that you provide will be out of date and not relevant.
• The learning you deliver must genuinely enable people to make progress in their careers.
• L&D needs to stop only being order takers. Work more closely with managers to understand business challenges and be actively involved in finding solutions.
• Certain elements of people´s roles impact the way they behave. If a learning intervention cannot change that element speak up and ask those who can solve that underlying issue to do so.
• Create a learning culture, e.g. include skill acquisition in personal reviews.
• Democratize access to learning.
• Use generative AI to make the training more relevant in every role in every geography.
• Measure progress against actual business objectives.
• Start now.
• Create some small experiments and generate wins. You only need one win to create credibility and act as a springboard.

BEST MOMENTS

“Ensure that the whole body of L&D is in lockstep with the business.”

“The more courage you lean into, the more credibility you build.”

“Be bold and go forth.”

“Any good action today is better than perfect action a month from now.”

CLO Lift, From Time to Value report: https://learningforum.substack.com/p/clo-lift-from-time-to-value?r=ivpaq&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&triedRedirect=true

Lisa Christensen Bio:

As Director of Learning Design and Innovation at McKinsey & Company, Lisa leads a global team focused on cutting-edge learning solutions. She founded McKinsey’s Learning Research and Innovation Lab and is a recognized thought leader in learning. Lisa is a founding member of CLO Lift and was previously a senior leader at a learning design firm.

Huw Newton-Hill Bio:

Huw leads Attensi’s US office, delivering AI-powered training solutions. A former strategy consultant at BCG, he now drives growth and innovation in L&D, contributing to forums like CLO Lift.

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D.

CONTACT METHOD

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjameslinkedin/
• L&D Collective: https://360learning.com/the-l-and-d-collective/
• Blog: https://360learning.com/blog/
• L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

At some point or another, we’ve all found ourselves struggling to demonstrate the value of our L&D solutions, wondering if there has been value or whether we’ll find it. For many of us, it’s a constant search. In this episode, Neil John Cunningham unpacks this for us and lets us in on the steps outlined in his most recent book, Numbers & Narratives, to prove the value of our L&D.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Don´t worry about not understanding the data. Someone in the business will just ask them to explain it to you.
• Using data stories to prove the effectiveness of what you are doing is good for you as well as for the business. Most of us are not getting the most out of existing business data.
• Storytelling is incredibly powerful, especially if you back it up with data.
• The Hero´s Journey storytelling framework is often a good way to structure a data story.
• Once you´ve got your hypothesis, where the business is going and where it needs to go, break that down into learning objectives.
• Using data stories appeals to people who are emotionally driven as well as to those who are data driven.
• Understand what commercials are important to the people in your business.
• If you don´t know what the financials are e.g. how much it costs to handle each call talk to the people that do know.
• Be really honest about L&D can offer.
• If you can´t help with a certain issue, be brave enough to say so.
• Keep things simple and succinct. As much as possible use simple, universally understood data.

BEST MOMENTS

'I´d been creating these little data stories, I could prove that what I was doing was having an effect.'

'The way you solve the L&D engagement issue is to solve problems that matter to individuals.'

'Show where L&D can do better.'

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

Neil John Cunningham Bio

Neil is the author of the books, 19 Low-cost Ways to Improve Your L&D Offering; The Strategic Order Taker: A Guide for L&D to be Seen, Heard, and Valued; and his most recent Narratives & Numbers. Neil is an experienced Head of Talent & Learning and following a career of running Learning and Talent functions, he now supports others doing so with his consulting and writing.

You can connect with Neil and follow his work via:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neiljohncunningham/

Website: www.alignlearndo.com

Link to book: https://alignlearndo.com/narratives-and-numbers/

Code for 10% off book: 360

The Hero´s Journey - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heros-Journey-Joseph-Campbell-Collected/dp/1608681890

ABOUT THE HOST

David James

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D.

CONTACT METHOD

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjameslinkedin/
• L&D Collective: https://360learning.com/the-l-and-d-collective/
• Blog: https://360learning.com/blog/
• L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

• What do 146 L&D professionals care most about?
• What are the killer stats L&D should know about right now?
• Is ‘learning content’ really necessary?
• What questions will be pulled from the cuddly toy’s posterior?

Find out the answers to all these questions and more in this very special live edition of The Learning & Development Podcast with guests Nick Shackleton-Jones and Kenny Temowo.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Understanding how to provide their organisation with greater value and impact is a big concern for L&D professionals.
• 75% of people said their work leader had more of an influence on their mental health than their life partner does.
• Experiential training for leaders enables them to better understand how their behaviour and expectations impact those who work for them.
• The fact that future generations look at work differently is having a huge impact on L&D.
• When people are offered face-to-face training, they feel invested in.
• Gamification isn´t working but simulations are.
• If you can´t see a measurable change (ROI) the chances are you should not be doing it.
• Content has to be carefully crafted to be relevant.

BEST MOMENTS

'I would make sure that we're really involving and holding accountable the leaders.'

'How do we help organizations manage stability, the sense of belonging and psychological safety that we need.'

'Content only matters to you if it's relevant somehow.'

VALUABLE RESOURCES

The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523

L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Nick Shackleton-Jones Bio

Nick is a genuine thought-leader in Learning & Development, responsible for initiating shift from ‘courses to resources’ and for the affective context model of learning.

He began his professional life as a psychology lecturer and went on to lead learning functions at Siemens, BBC & BP. He’s now a consultant and author of ‘How People Learn’ (Kogan Page, May 2019) as well as winning several awards for people development strategy, innovation, and learning content, including the Learning & Performance Institute’s Award for Services to the Learning Industry, 2017.

You can follow and contact Nick via:

Twitter: @shackletonjones

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shackletonjones/

Shackleton Consulting: https://shackleton-consulting.com/

Kenny Temowo Bio

Kenny Temowo leads Talent Management and Leadership Development for Netflix UK. He’s spent almost two decades in learning and education, working as a consultant with clients such as the BBC, Vodafone, and Rolls-Royce, as well as leading in-house L&D teams.

You can follow Kenny via:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kennytemowo/

ABOUT THE HOST

David James

David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.

As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D.

CONTACT METHOD

• Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjameslinkedin/
• L&D Collective: https://360learning.com/the-l-and-d-collective/
• Blog: https://360learning.com/blog/
• L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home/