In this episode of the Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur is joined by Toby Kheng to discuss the provocative topic, "The End of L&D." They explore the challenges, limitations, and future possibilities of Learning and Development (L&D) as it currently operates within organisations. Toby argues for a systemic overhaul, where L&D evolves into a more holistic "employee experience design" function, integrating insights from HR, internal communications, and beyond.

Key themes include the role of data, the value of product and service design in learning, and the imperative to break down silos for more effective and engaging employee solutions.

Toby Kheng

With over 14 years in L&D, Toby is a thought leader passionate about transforming organisational learning. He co-founded Freeformers, focusing on innovative, human-centred approaches to employee experience design. Toby’s expertise spans L&D, internal communications, and organisational strategy.

L&D often functions in a silo, designing training that validates its existence rather than addressing broader organisational needs. This narrow focus leads to duplication, inefficiency, and missed opportunities to impact engagement, productivity, and profitability.

• Treat employment as a product, designing for the entire employee journey.
• Borrow frameworks from customer experience design, such as human-centred design and design thinking.
• Break down silos between HR, internal communications, and recruitment to create cohesive employee experiences.

Toby highlights the need for consistent, meaningful data collection across departments to inform decision-making. Without integrated insights from recruitment, HR, and internal comms, L&D operates in an informational vacuum.

Getting stakeholders like HR, recruitment, and communications into one room can reveal overlaps, reduce duplication, and spark innovative solutions. The future of L&D lies in its ability to lead this integration.

• By 2030: Incremental improvements with AI and tech adoption but largely within the current framework.
• By 2040: Transformation driven by small-to-medium businesses adopting holistic employee experience models, influencing larger corporations to follow suit.

Greg introduces the podcast and Toby, setting the stage for the discussion on the potential "end" of L&D.

Toby shares his critiques of traditional L&D models and the limitations of siloed functions.

Greg and Toby debate whether the future of L&D is a gradual evolution or a complete overhaul.

Toby explains how frameworks like human-centred design and the double diamond can transform learning initiatives.

How can L&D leverage data from across the business to create better solutions?

In this episode of Product Design for Learning, host Greg Arthur talks with Bo Duery, Impact Lead at Lepaya, about the pivotal role of data in designing and measuring learning programs. Bo shares insights from his journey from chemical engineering to Learning & Development (L&D), discussing why data should be an integral part of the design process. From setting actionable goals to using qualitative and quantitative methods, Bo shares strategies to help L&D professionals gather, analyze, and leverage data effectively.

Name: Bo Duery

Title: Impact Lead at Lepaya

Background: Bo’s career began in chemical engineering and operational improvement before transitioning into L&D, where he emphasizes data-driven decision-making for soft skills training and performance enhancement. His approach combines analytical rigor with empathy for the learner experience, advocating for data that both informs and inspires impactful learning solutions.

• Understanding Data’s Role: Data isn’t just numbers; it’s a tool for deeper insights into learner needs and program effectiveness.
• The Value of Observation: Observing people in their work environments provides context beyond raw data, uncovering practical challenges and learning gaps.
• Setting Realistic Goals: Establishing three key levels—organizational goals, audience needs, and program specifics—ensures clear alignment from the start.
• Balancing Qualitative and Quantitative Data: Combining surveys and interviews creates a balanced view, capturing both measurable outcomes and nuanced experiences.
• Iterative Analysis: Regular reflection on data helps teams adapt quickly, making data analysis a continuous, rather than a one-time, process.
• Using Gut Feeling Cautiously: While instincts can be valuable, they should be backed by data, especially in team settings where opinions vary.

Bo shares his journey from operational improvement in industries like manufacturing and healthcare to his current role in L&D. He discusses how his experiences underscored the importance of tracking and measuring performance, which led him to advocate for data-informed learning strategies.

Bo describes data as the investigative phase in design, where stakeholders align on questions, gather evidence, and distill insights. He emphasizes that data is essential in building a strong foundation, guiding teams before solutions are even considered.

Bo recommends starting with a clear understanding of organizational goals, the audience’s needs, and program objectives. He advises a tiered approach that explores organizational impact, individual behaviors, and specific program details, using both qualitative and quantitative methods for a complete view.

Bo emphasizes the value of in-person observation, shadowing, and direct interaction with learners to contextualize data. He advocates for exploring qualitative insights before relying solely on quantitative metrics, balancing the numbers with real-world context.

Bo advises balancing data collection with time and budget constraints. He suggests that confidence in presenting findings, especially to...

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur speaks with Arash Mazanani, a dynamic learning leader from Aggreko, about the critical Understand Phase in product design, particularly in the context of learning solutions. They dive into the importance of this phase, which involves thoroughly exploring problems and defining requirements before moving into solution-building. Arash shares his insights on how to guide stakeholders, ask the right questions, and ensure that learning products meet both business objectives and employee needs.

Arash Rezeai-Mazanani is a learning professional with over a decade of experience in FTSE 100 and private equity companies. He specialises in leadership development, global transformation, and human-centred design. His approach centres on experimentation and disruptive thinking to create meaningful, business-aligned solutions that address employee challenges.

• The Understand Phase serves as a North Star, helping guide teams by clarifying project goals and focusing efforts.
• Asking the right questions during this phase is critical to uncovering the real problem behind requests.
• Arash stresses the importance of curiosity and using techniques like the Toyota "5 Whys" to dig deep into stakeholders' needs.
• Starting with what people need to do rather than what they need to know ensures that learning solutions are practical and impactful.
• Stakeholder management is key: defining who should be involved and why helps streamline projects and avoid late-stage derailments.
• Don’t rush the Understand Phase; it's vital to get a comprehensive understanding before moving to the next phase.

Arash explains how everyone has a "swanky" version of their job title but emphasises the daily challenges professionals face, including doubt and striving for improvement.

Arash describes the Understand Phase as a guiding force that provides direction and clarity. Without defining the problem, projects risk scope creep or lack of focus.

Arash emphasises curiosity and asking lots of questions to really get to the heart of the problem. Understanding assumptions and the true drivers behind requests is essential.

Arash advises avoiding this by ensuring key stakeholders are involved from the start. He shares strategies for addressing late-stage interventions if they occur.

Arash discusses the importance of identifying stakeholders with clear roles and responsibilities. Keeping stakeholder groups tight helps avoid unnecessary delays and misalignment.

Arash stresses the importance of asking whether all aspects of the problem have been fully explored, using the "think, feel, do" model to make sure no stone is left unturned.

Arash suggests encouraging stakeholders to share all their ideas upfront, then parking those ideas until the appropriate phase. This allows for a more focused problem-solving approach.

Arash recommends staying curious, enjoying the journey, and making the Understand Phase a non-negotiable...