For years, Mark Ritson and Byron Sharp have been two of the most influential and most opinionated voices in marketing. They've challenged each other's ideas, debated strategy, and helped shape how an entire generation of marketers thinks.

Now, for the first time in more than a decade, at Cannes Lions, they sit down together to answer a simple question: what do they actually agree on?

From How Brands Grow and the 95:5 rule to distinctiveness, the 4 Ps, mass marketing, luxury brands, purpose and AI, this conversation explores the fundamental marketing principles they both believe every marketer should understand.

There are still plenty of disagreements (and more than a few jokes at each other's expense), but this is a rare opportunity to hear two of the industry's biggest thinkers build a shared foundation for modern marketing.

This episode is brought to you by System1. Download their creator effectiveness report here: https://system1group.com/the-creator-effectiveness-playbook

Timestamps

00:00:00 - Start
00:00:40 - Teaser
00:02:08 - Mark Ritson on Champagne
00:03:42 - When did Mark and Byron meet
00:05:36 - Why Byron and Mark are coming together after a decade
00:07:25 - When Jon met Byron
00:08:57 - Is AI more brand centric than humans?
00:11:08 - Mark and Byron’s criticism on their Cannes talk
00:12:49 - The problem with academia
00:13:45 - What do marketers still not understand about How Brands Grow
00:18:06 - You are not the customer
00:20:56 - Distinctiveness vs relative differentiation
00:28:45 - Why we need to control all 4 Ps
00:33:10 - The 95:5 rule
00:39:20 - Why Byron doesn’t like the term “Long Term”
00:42:41 - The role of mass marketing
00:46:40 - How to do mass marketing as a challenger brand
00:53:45 - How long does it take to build a proper brand
00:56:10 - What does Byron think of P&G
00:58:47 - The power of distinctive brand assets
01:03:42 - Why brand anniversaries are pointless
01:04:40 - How luxury brands grow
01:09:16 - The role of purpose
01:16:58 - The dark lord of penetration
01:18:17 - What pet name does Byron have for Mark
01:23:17 - Closing remarks

In this episode, Josh Spanier from Google and Lauren Wiener from BCG join us to discuss how AI is transforming marketing, organisations, and the role of the CMO. From navigating the AI hype cycle to building the right culture for change, they share practical advice for leaders trying to turn AI from a buzzword into a genuine competitive advantage.

We also explore the future skills marketers will need, the changing role of agencies, why marketing should lead AI transformation, and where the industry is likely to be just 12 months from now.

This episode has been produced in partnership with BCG. Browse their CMO Report here:
https://www.bcg.com/publications/2026/making-the-agentic-marketing-transformation-a-reality

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
01:52 - Where are we in the AI hype cycle
04:48 - How are Google seeing AI impact businesses
06:50 - The difference between the CMOs who are getting it right and wrong
09:05 - The future of marketing in the age of AI
10:48 - The skills of the future CMO
16:41 - Why marketing needs to drive the change
19:18 - Positive examples of AI
24:01 - How do organisations make the change
27:02 - When AI campaigns don’t go so well
29:11 - How AI data will transform marketing
30:13 - Dealing with higher expectations but less resource
35:25 - The culture to enable successful AI transformation
36:55 - The role of agencies in an AI world
38:50 - AI predictions in 12 months
40:23 - The best advice you’ve ever been given
41:52 - Where will marketing be in 12 months

Adam Morgan, founder of eatbigfish and co-creator of The Cost of Dull, joins us to explore why surprise is one of the most powerful tools available to marketers. Drawing on new research unveiled at Cannes Lions, Adam and Jon explain the psychology behind surprise, the science of reward prediction error, and why memorable brands consistently give people more than they expect.

We discuss the different types of surprise, why products need to live up to the expectations created by advertising, and examine some of the best examples of surprise in modern marketing from Aldi to Jaguar and beyond.

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
01:58 - The surprising outcomes of Cost of Dull
06:04 - The genesis of Cost of Dull
09:01 - Why are we talking about surprise?
10:08 - Why the best marketers look outside of marketing
13:42 - What the data says about surprise
15:50 - Reward prediction error
17:26 - Why your product needs to exceed expectations set by your brand
19:59 - The surprising power of giving people more than they expect
21:48 - The two types of surprise
25:00 - Adam’s favourite examples of surprise
26:09 - Jon’s favourite example of surprise
28:20 - Was Jaguar intentionally surprising?
29:39 - Examples of long term surprise
31:50 - Why Aldi are so successful at surprise
34:28 - Why you need a system for your surprise
38:15 - The right balance of surprise
42:12 - When is shock necessary