Two of our most popular guests return for a conversation on what’s gone wrong in modern marketing and how to fix it. Rory Sutherland and Tom Goodwin tackle everything from digital overload and bad choice architecture to the disappearance of taglines, long-term thinking, and genuine creativity.

Expect behavioural science, contrarian thinking, and plenty of ideas that will make you rethink how marketing really works.

Timestamps

00:00:00 - Start
00:01:31 - Digital overload - are consumers given too much choice?
00:05:51 - The power of “Easter Egg Thinking”
00:07:54 - Have hotels destroyed choice architecture?
00:10:56 - More choice reduction failures
00:14:46 - Do consumers need more choice?
00:17:45 - How ad agencies can discover real insights
00:19:21 - An idea to revolutionise Cannes
00:20:49 - Why Rory and Tom think differently
00:24:05 - What are the biggest marketing myths today
00:30:41 - Fat tailed distribution - the Dulux Dog
00:32:18 - Why we need to bring back the tagline
00:35:17 - Are marketers too young?
00:37:15 - The long term work only pays off after you’re fired
00:42:34 - How to we make companies look more long term?
00:48:03 - Why people love Ryanair but hate BA
00:49:09 - The role of surprise in advertising
00:50:43 - Is marketing actually rather easy?
01:00:49 - Is the advertising agency model broken?

Thank you to our sponsor, System1: https://system1group.com/

Jim Olson has spent his career helping businesses navigate moments of intense pressure from corporate crises to deeply personal challenges, running comms at United Airlines and Starbucks. In this episode, the author of Tailwind shares the lessons he’s learned from leadership, resilience, and facing adversity head-on.

Drawing inspiration from Captain Sully’s Hudson River landing, Jim explains why the best crisis leaders follow the same process: aviate, navigate, communicate. We discuss where crisis management often goes wrong, what leaders can learn from failures like United Airlines, and why “black box thinking” matters in both business and marketing.

Jim also opens up about his own cancer diagnosis and the mindset that helped him through it.

Get Jim's new book, Tailwind here:
https://www.amazon.com/Tailwind-Compass-Turning-Setback-Comeback/dp/B0GXCM3VYT/

00:00 - Start
01:11 - Lessons from Captain Sully’s Hudson River landing
06:11 - The black box thinking approach to marketing
07:30 - Other crises Jim has had to deal with in his career
09:18 - When crisis management goes wrong - United Airlines
13:11 - Managing merging two cultures
15:27 - The situation when Jim’s CEO had a heart attack
18:00 - Jim’s cancer diagnosis
23:30 - The power of positive mentality
28:30 - Don’t ask yourself what if, ask yourself why not
31:34 - The power of a fourth space
34:05 - Crisis doesn’t build character, it reveals it
37:02 - Leadership lessons from Howard Schultz
38:58 - Jim’s advice for those people facing a crisis

Dan Taylor has spent over two decades at Google, helping shape how brands grow through search, media, and technology. Today, he leads global advertising at one of the world’s most influential companies, giving him a front-row seat to the biggest shifts in marketing.

In this episode, Dan shares what he’s learned from 20 years at Google, from the importance of simplicity to navigating organisational complexity and the evolving relationship between product and commercial teams. We also dive into the future of search, including AI, new tools like “Circle to Search,” and what it all means for marketers.

Timestamps

00:00 – Start
00:40 – Lessons from being a pilot
05:34 – Lessons from 20 years at Google
06:43 – How Google has changed over two decades
07:46 – The power of simplicity
09:02 – Google’s breakthrough moments
12:11 – The relationship between commercial and product
13:47 – Navigating organisational politics
17:08 – The biggest search trends in marketing
18:24 – What is “Circle to Search”?
20:37 – Opportunities for marketers in new search behaviours
24:52 – How AI is changing search
25:59 – Does Google see AI as competition?
28:09 – Will ads exist in AI search?
32:00 – How brands can improve search performance
33:42 – Making the most of Google and YouTube
35:34 – Measuring the value of brand search
39:56 – AI’s impact on creativity
45:52 – The one lesson from 20 years at Google